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Ç└ ■ ê ? Ç ê~ ⁿ Ç ê| ° ?└ Çx ≡ └ Çx α α Çp └ α Çp └ ≡ Çp Ç ≡ Çp Ç ≡ Çp Ç?ⁿ≡ Çp Ç'ⁿ≡ Çp Ç?ⁿ≡ Çp Ç ≡ Çp Ç ≡ ç≡ └ ≡ ü≡ └ α ü≡ α α ü≡ ≡ └ ü≡ ° ?└ üα ⁿ Ç ÅÇ └ ü■ ■ α ü■ ■ ≡ ü■ ≡ ü■ ≡ ² ╧≡ ⁿ ≡ ≈ 8 | =╧° DTÇ æ¿ é á â╢uæ╖╪ á éÆòÜdá éÆçÆ|á DÆàÆ`æ 8 ╣√|9╧p ° ° ½╧ PICT! ■ ²éüüééé√ééé√é Ωα¡αα α Ω Ω ¼ê¼ª│¼ë¡¡■¡¼ ¡▀ααΩ■▀α▀αα ■αα■α ²▀ ²▀■■α²│²│¡²¡■¡ê¡ⁿ벡¡ⁿ겡¡│ ¡¡¼¡¡¡¡²¡²¡²²²²¡²²²¡²²¼▐¼¡²¼²ê ⌠ ■■■Ω■■Ω■αΩΩ Ω▀■²■ ²■²¡⌠ ¡α■ ⁿü ■αα■αα■αΩ▀Ω ·ê¡¡êé│ë¡ⁿëⁿé▀ë_ α│ⁿªëë¡▀éêê¡▐ ë▐ꪲ√]¼√]V·°üª1≈+9°~*÷ü√▌2 UxT*T Vª2Çåå░éW·ü·ë²¼²τ²╤τΦ■Φ ²¡¡αα µ Θ╤Φ╤º}Ω╤ΘΦΘΦΦ╤╤╤¡τ╤Θ Θ╤╤╤Φ╤ΦΦ¡ΦΦΦΦ╤ Θ╤■ΣσΩ╤╤ΦΦ■τΦΦ ╤ΦΦ╤╤╤Θ╤Θ╤Θ╤Θ╤º}º╤ΘµσΘΦ╤╤╤╤Θ╤Θ ╤Subj: And from the info you gathered? 94-08-15 16:40:21 EDT From: Prince99 Posted on: America OnlineWhat info Jason? You are as unreliable a source on games than Gamepro. Who areyou trying to kid? Come over to Prodigy. Tons will put you in your place. That'sa fact!Come-August 16th! Tomorrow!-----Subj: TK3DOFORUM... 94-08-15 17:27:30 EDT From: JasonTE3 Posted on: America Online"I guess the Jag's in, what, 5th place with regard to John Madden Football? Eventhe DUO has John Madden football. Let's see: SNES, SEGA, SEGA CD, DUO, 3DO-Iguess I erred, the Jag's in 6th place. Kind of a mindless remark, no?" -TK3DOFORUMI agree. Your remark is mindless.John Madden Football is not to football games what DOOM is to first-personexploration games. If you want to make John Madden Football out to be a bigdeal, though, that still doesn't take away from what I said about DOOM. ClayCipmade a comment in regard to "computers vs. consoles" in which he _just happened_(yeah, right) to include Jaguar DOOM as an example of how computers are betterthan consoles in some ways. I knew that his intent was to get in a shot at theJaguar (even though he acted as though he was just making a "computers vs.consoles" comment), so I responded by pointing out that the Jaguar version ofDOOM is at least better than no version of the game on the 3DO. Would youdisagree with me that Jaguar DOOM is better than no DOOM? If not, then I haveno idea what your complaint is. If ClayCip or anybody else wants to take a shotat Jaguar DOOM for _possibly_ not being as good as the PC version in some ways,then I'm certainly going to point out that the Jaguar version of DOOM is a lotbetter than the game's absence on the 3DO.Jason-----Subj: Dope Mo... 94-08-15 17:28:58 EDT From: JasonTE3 Posted on: America Online"i think, IMHO that the controlles are not as bad as everyone makes them seem."- Dope Mo"Not as bad as everyone makes them seem" is a far cry from "almost perfect",which is how you previously described the controls."from what i saw, the only problem the game had was connecting hits. if theyfix that, and touch up a few things, it could be a BIG hit." - Dope MoThe people I've talked to have said that the hit detection isn't the onlyproblem with the game. You defended the game as having "near perfect" controls. I asked you to defend that claim and you can't.Jason-----Subj: Prince99... 94-08-15 17:29:19 EDT From: JasonTE3 Posted on: America Online"You did not talk to a programmer who told you all about WOTW." - Prince99Yes, I did. How would you know, anyway? Once again, you pretend to know thingsthat you don't know."EGM would have never reviewed WOTW, you would have never posted something tothe tones of what you did. Should we believe u? I don't think so." - Prince991.) Your credibility is abysmal. You certainly have no room to criticizeanybody else in regard to how credible they are.2.) There are a lot of specifics in what I posted about the game. If you canprove any of them wrong, be my guest.3.) What "proof" do you have that I'm lying, other than that you don't want tobelieve anything negative about the 3DO?4.) Why haven't you explained yet what makes WOTW "the best fighting game you'veever played, with perfect controls"???Jason-----Subj: Prince99...cont. 94-08-15 17:29:40 EDT From: JasonTE3 Posted on: America Online"You act as though fighting games are the messiah of all videogames, thereforebashing the current 3DO Lineup." - Prince99Can you cite one example of me downplaying Road Rash, GEX, Guardian War, or anyother game coming to the 3DO, just because of the bad reviews that WOTW isgetting? Of course you can't. You make things up as you go along."Fighting games are one dimensional and have lost most of its' audience due tooverexposure, just like shooters." - Prince99Here's a quarter, pal. Buy yourself a clue. Call up your local EB on MortalFriday and see for yourself just how much of the fighting genre's appeal hasbeen "lost". You really just _don't_ know what you're talking about."Come over to Prodigy. Tons will put you in your place." - Prince99No thanks. I'll pass. I've read the video game discussions on Prodigy and yourstyle of mindless drivel is the norm there.Jason-----Subj: WOTW Review...all parts 94-08-15 17:54:00 EDT From: VideoHead1 Posted on: America Onlinehere is a responce from David Liu: (KRRVission posted jasons message on thenet)""This post (or repost) of the guy who says he played way on a SGI is reallywierd. I also was not aware that you could play it on an SGI.One BIG note is that if you are playing Way on a machine that is NOT a 3DO, thischages a lot of aspects of the game. For example, playing on a Mac changes thespeed and pauses in the game due to hard disk access with music on, etc. Butstill, I'd be interested to know exactly what SGI setup this fellow claims tohave played the game on.Anyhow, his complaint about his kicks not connecting is also very strange. I'venever heard this before, even after hundreds of CES players gave me theircomments. In fact, without giving away engine secrets of Andy's, it would beIMPOSSIBLE for your leg (or sword or arm or anything the CPU considers to be anoffensive object to touch any part of your enemy and NOT elict one of tworesponses:1) A red/orange star, signifying a hit 2) A blue star, signifying a blocked move(or potion or magic which has repelled the attack).I'm very suspicious of this primary complaint because the program is NOT EVENEQUIPPED with the ability to show a miss if you actually hit or vice-versa. There are some detailed complications to these rules, but they are special casesand don't deal with a simple kick.I have felt that the graphics and sound which this guy likes is really inferiorin both quality and importance to the game's engine, which was designed to befast and smooth and responsive. If this guy is in the Bay Area and wants to tryWay on my 3DO, I invite him to call me at 510-549-0573. I also think PrimalRage has better graphics than Way, as i imagine most folks would find.Also, what version did he play?KRR vision is telling us comments by Jason TE3 who heard them from his friendwho has another friend who works for a testing company? The only testingcompany involved with Way was BugBusters, which failed to find any bugs ofconsequence, and missed others which I and others at 3DO and Universal laterreported. I wonder how long they played this game...BTW, there is a small (1/9 of a second or so) period during a fallen player's"getup" during which he cannot be attacked (that way yoiu can't cheese to deatha fallen opponent). This shoudln't be confused with a bug in the game's engine.David-----Subj: jason... 94-08-15 19:44:56 EDT From: Prince99 Posted on: America Onlineyou DID downplay RR. You said that it is just being hyped up by 3DO advocates,and if it is just better graphics and a downgrade like TE, you will not buy it.-----Subj: Re: JasonTE 94-08-15 19:53:47 EDT From: ClayCip Posted on: America Online"Heck, Star Fox beats the stuffing out of Total Eclipse" - JasonTEThis is simply not true. Star Fox has a poor frame rate, invisible rails at theleft and right side of the track, and horrendous graphics. It is quiteliterally *painful* to go back to SF after one has played the 24 FPS TotalEclipse.And the gameplay in SF lacks even the depth one finds in TE. Sure there aremultiple paths - but there is no real lateral movement on those paths. They aresimply *exactly* the same each and every time you fly through. In TE, one atleast has strong left to right freedom and can take many paths through the samelevel.-----Subj: Re: Jason 94-08-15 19:54:31 EDT From: ClayCip Posted on: America Online"But the Jaguar has Wolfenstein 3D and that alone ends this debate" - JasonTEI thought you hated Wolf-3D?-----Subj: Re: JasonTE 94-08-15 19:58:39 EDT From: AndrewWelc Posted on: America Online>> "Heck, Star Fox beats the stuffing out of Total Eclipse" - JasonTEThis is simply not true. Star Fox has a poor frame rate, invisible rails at theleft and right side of the track, and horrendous graphics. It is quiteliterally *painful* to go back to SF after one has played the 24 FPS TotalEclipse. << Agreed -- Total Eclipse kicks some serious butt.Andrew-----Subj: Re: JohnG78004 94-08-15 20:12:33 EDT From: ClayCip Posted on: America OnlineIt is your *opinion* that the Jaguar has a superior architecture to the 3DO. Based on the available games, many would conclude the exact opposite. 3DO hasinterpolation to 640 x 480 in hardware.. Jaguar doesn't. 3DO has an advancedbus architecture with DMA channels.. Jaguar doesn't. 3DO has dedicated VRAM..Jaguar doesn't. 3DO provides full support for high level languages and anoperating system.. Atari doesn't.<etc...> the list goes on and on. There are more reasons than immediately meetthe eye when glancing over technical specs why the typical *released* 3DO titlelooks much nicer and has a superior frame rate to the typical *released" Jaguartitle (example Cybermorph v/ ShockWave.. literally IMHO an order of magnitudebetter rendering at nearly twice the frame rate)-----Subj: Re: JohnG78004 94-08-15 20:22:10 EDT From: ClayCip Posted on: America OnlineOn the other side of the argument, of course, Jaguar has Gouraud shading inhardware (3DO doesn't), Jaguar has a 64 bit system bus (3DO's is 32), Jaguar hashighly programmable coprocessors that can even take on a role as the coreprocessor (3DO doesn't), Jaguar has fast SRAM for holding 4k or 8k blocks of GPUcode (3DO, I believe, doesn't), etc...Depending on how one looks at it, either system could be made to look like "thewinner". Even the fact that the current crop of Jag games look very 8 bit mayonly be indicative of the short time developers have had with the machine andthe difficulty of the unit to program.-----Subj: Prince99... 94-08-15 21:13:22 EDT From: JasonTE3 Posted on: America Online"you DID downplay RR. You said that it is just being hyped up by 3DO advocates,and if it is just better graphics and a downgrade like TE, you will not buy it."- Prince99I said that some 3DO advocates would likely overrate Road Rash, even if it waslittle more than a downgrade of the 16-bit version, with better graphics andsound. If that was a downplay of anything, it was a downplay of some 3DOadvocates, not a downplay of RR. In any case, that happened long before thenegative reviews of WOTW came in. You said that I've been downplaying theentire lineup of games coming to the 3DO, just because of how bad WOTW appearsto be. That's bunk and you know it. I've _never_ said that Road Rash, GEX,Samurai Shodown, Guardian War, or any other upcoming 3DO game will be bad justbecause WOTW is bad. You make this stuff up as you go along, Prince.Jason-----Subj: ClayCip... 94-08-15 21:13:47 EDT From: JasonTE3 Posted on: America Online"It is quite literally *painful* to go back to SF after one has played the 24FPS Total Eclipse." - ClayCipCorrection: it is quite literally *painful* to go back to SF after one has_SEEN_ the 24 FPS Total Eclipse. There's almost nothing about how TE _plays_that puts it ahead of SF. TE doesn't allow you to shoot straight, your ship isoverly sensitive to control pad movement, and you take damage for hittingobjects you actually never touched. SF allows for more to be done with yourship, has better controls, is a longer game, and allows for more options as towhat path you take through the game. The advantages that TE has over SF interms of graphics and sound are more than outweighed by the disadvantages it hasdue to worse play mechanics."'But the Jaguar has Wolfenstein 3D and that alone ends this debate' - JasonTEI thought you hated Wolf-3D?" - ClayCipI don't like W3D much, but some people do. I've even heard some people say thatthey'll buy a Jaguar for W3D. Just as SW "ends the debate" for some people andT2000 "ends the debate" for me, W3D "ends the debate" for other people."Even the fact that the current crop of Jag games look very 8 bit" - ClayCipAnd you wonder why people call you a Jaguar basher? I wonder which 8-bit gamesyou've seen that have Tempest 2000's amount of on-screen movement, Cybermorph'senvironment, Tempest 2000's soundtrack, Crescent Galaxy's amount of colorson-screen, W3D's speed and resolution, etc. Give it a rest, ClayCip. There's adifference between legitimate criticism and bashing. More often than not, youbash the Jaguar rather than reasonably criticizing it.Jason-----Subj: Re:Jason... 94-08-15 23:40:39 EDT From: RandyBORL Posted on: America Online>> Others who like Tempest better can't afford 3DO's. <<I always like it when people presume to know how much other people make or howmuch money they have to spend on games...Randy-----Subj: Tempest 2000 *not* on SNES 94-08-15 23:46:16 EDT From: RandyBORL Posted on: America Online>> 1. Tempest 2000 could have been done on the SNES. The SNES has theability to do such a game with as good as graphics and sound and play atthe same speed. >>Not a chance. I own both systems and I've played the best the SNES has to offer. The sound chips are nowhere near as good as those on the Jaguar. Digitizedsounds and samples tend to sound tinny on the SNES, whereas you get a much"fatter", and crisper sound on the Jaguar. There's just no comparison here. Graphically, I think you might be able to do Tempest 2000 *IF* you use the FXchip, because the SNES by itself cannot do high speed polygon manipulation,which is 99% of what Tempest is. You have failed to provide a single compellingtechnical argument to backup your claim that Tempest 2000 could be done an SNES. If you don't like Tempest 2000, fine, but to say that it could have been doneon an SNES is simply without technical merit..>> On the other hand the 3DO uses its abilities well. The SNES, Genesis,or Jaguar (the CD is not available yet) are currently incapable of handlinggames like Shockwave, <<Please explain to us all how you know exactly what the Jaguar is *capable* ofand what it is not capable of...in technical terms please...so those of us whowrite software for a living can follow along :)Randy-----Subj: Apology to Jason. 94-08-16 00:33:04 EDT From: KRRvision Posted on: America OnlineMembers,I would like to take a moment and publicly apologize to Jason for using hiscomments in a public posting on the Internet. it was not my intention to postJason's comments as a public newsgroup message, but rather as a private messageto David Liu.It seems that I have now setup Jason for a load of angry mail and flame lettersin rgv.3do. This was not my intent and I apologize to Jason for this. I realizethat even in a public forum like this some people do not like to have thiercomments spread across other systems, and I try to abide by this like everyoneelse. In his most recent postings Jason, and his source made some verycompelling arguments against WOTW, arguments that I felt David Liu shouldaddress. I wanted his response in private, that didn't happen.My point was not to discredit Jason or his source, but rather to get moreinformation on the growing number of complaints against WOTW. EGM prints a badreview and all of sudden everyone comes out of the woodwork! I wanted someanswers.Once again I apologize to Jason for being a bit too overzelous in pursuing thetruth about WOTW.-----Subj: Jason is bunk. 94-08-16 12:15:26 EDT From: Prince99 Posted on: America OnlineAh, back to your old self. TE is much better than Star Fox! You saying it's notis YOUR OPINON. Me saying it is is MINE. Can't u grasp that?-----Subj: Prince99... 94-08-16 13:49:41 EDT From: JasonTE3 Posted on: America Online"Ah, back to your old self. TE is much better than Star Fox! You saying it's notis YOUR OPINON. Me saying it is is MINE. Can't u grasp that?" - Prince99I've already grasped it, Prince. I'm not the one calling people names ("freak","super-freak", "fool", etc.) when they disagree with my game preferences."Bang him. Report him for the angry mail. End is reign as King of the Fighters,I sent your stuff yesterday! You should get it by Friday! The new album iskickin'!" - Prince99Do you ever _read_ what you type before posting it? Do you even check to makesure that what you're saying _makes sense_ before you post it? Apparently not.Jason----- Subj: Re:3DO "figures" 94-08-16 20:09:26 EDT From: ACLAMPosted on: America Online>>>If you READ the article it specifically states that the primary source ofrevenue was "hardware and software sales...". What, is 3DO selling that includeshardware? Microwaves? Does it not stand to reason there is a percentage involvedfor each 3DO unit that is sold? (You know, like royalties).<<<I don't know the specific royalties arrangement 3DO has with hardwaredevelopers, but I suspect it is next to nothing. hardware developers likePanasonic will have a tough enough time being profitable given 3DO's hard stanceon unit pricing. Most of 3DO's revenue comes from software licensing, wherethey get $3/CD manufactured (notice...not SOLD, but MANUFACTURED). $4.9 millionin revenue means that about 1.6 million CDs were manufactured. This is in linewith a press release earlier this spring when 3DO announced that the 1 millionCDs manufactured milestone had been reached.Once again, why do you have such a hard time accepting that "official" saleswere announced in June? It's not like the numbers were bad for 3DO....-----Subj: Re: JasonTE 94-08-16 22:10:29 EDT From: ClayCip Posted on: America OnlineMy reference to the Jag games looking 8 bit was in response to color depth (256v/ 65535 simultaneous colors). Wolf-3D, despite comments to the contrary, looksto me not much different from the PC version. Redrawing these graphics to takefull advantage of a 16 bit palette would have yielded results closer to those inAvP. Similarly, while Tempest 2000 does use the larger palette in the hardwaresupported Gouraud shading, it really does not showcase the Jaguar's inherentability to display highly realstic 16 bit color imagery (like photos, digitizedcharacters, etc...). Raiden is, also, very clearly 256 or less onscreen colors. At times, I thought it looked like PC EGA.I think you jumped to the conclusion that my "Jaguar games look 8 bit" was inreference to the processor. Rather, it was in reference to the color depth. Wehave seen on the 3DO the type of results that effective use of 16 bit color canyield. On the Jag, we have a taste in Tempest 2000's Gouraud shading and CG'snice visuals but neither really IMHO takes gaming to a level that couldn't havebeen done nearly as well with 8 bit color depth.Hence I don't consider this statement to be Jaguar bashing at all. I'll evensay it again with some additional supporting text to make my intention moreclear - "The color depth in most Jaguar games that have been *released* is notvisibly superior to what could be achieved with an 8 bit palette".-----Subj: ClayCip... 94-08-17 01:35:32 EDT From: JasonTE3 Posted on: America OnlineIf you were referring only to the color pallete in the Jaguar's current lineupof games, then I apologize. I misread your comment. Sorry.Jason-----Subj: WOTW on SGI 94-08-17 08:09:06 EDT From: AndrewWelc Posted on: America OnlineResponse from DavidLui:.....This post (or repost) of the guy who says he played way on a SGI is reallywierd. I also was not aware that you could play it on an SGI.One BIG note is that if you are playing Way on a machine that is NOT a 3DO, thischages a lot of aspects of the game. For example, playing on a Mac changes thespeed and pauses in the game due to hard disk access with music on, etc. Butstill, I'd be interested to know exactly what SGI setup this fellow claims tohave played the game on.Anyhow, his complaint about his kicks not connecting is also very strange. I'venever heard this before, even after hundreds of CES players gave me theircomments. In fact, without giving away engine secrets of Andy's, it would beIMPOSSIBLE for your leg (or sword or arm or anything the CPU considers to be anoffensive object to touch any part of your enemy and NOT elict one of tworesponses:1) A red/orange star, signifying a hit 2) A blue star, signifying a blocked move(or potion or magic which has repelled the attack).I'm very suspicious of this primary complaint because the program is NOT EVENEQUIPPED with the ability to show a miss if you actually hit or vice-versa. There are some detailed complications to these rules, but they are special casesand don't deal with a simple kick.I have felt that the graphics and sound which this guy likes is really inferiorin both quality and importance to the game's engine, which was designed to befast and smooth and responsive. If this guy is in the Bay Area and wants to tryWay on my 3DO, I invite him to call me at 510-549-0573. I also think PrimalRage has better graphics than Way, as i imagine most folks would find.Also, what version did he play?KRR vision is telling us comments by Jason TE3 who heard them from his friendwho has another friend who works for a testing company? The only testingcompany involved with Way was BugBusters, which failed to find any bugs ofconsequence, and missed others which I and others at 3DO and Universal laterreported. I wonder how long they played this game...BTW, there is a small (1/9 of a second or so) period during a fallen player's"getup" during which he cannot be attacked (that way yoiu can't cheese to deatha fallen opponent). This shoudln't be confused with a bug in the game's engine.David-----Subj: Re:3DO "figures" 94-08-17 08:54:12 EDT From: TK3DOFORUM Posted on: America OnlineI have a hard time accepting it because >NO ONE< can find it. Wouldn't thisannouncement be somewhere?TK ----- Subj: Re:TK3DOFORUM... 94-08-17 09:08:48 EDT From: TK3DOFORUM Posted on: America Online>>John Madden Football is not to football games what DOOM is to first-personexploration games. << Jason TE3 Excuse me? The most popular football game evermade isn't to football what Doom is to 1st person exploration games? Seems to meyou constantly make assessments on based on opinion, not on fact. When Iresponded to you saying the big wig at Babbage's said that 3DO sales were theprimary reason for Babbage's 10% sales increase, it was convieniently ignored byyou. Your assessment that 3DO games like Sewer Shark and other ports "weren'tselling well", were, once again, conjecture on your part. No facts. My pointregarding your mindless note is that you were bashing the 3DO because there wasno port of DOOM available for it, regardless of what you were responing to. Wecould go back and forth on what's available for what and what isn't. I thinkit's idiocy to bash a system for not having a particular game, especially whenthe system you are defending has an average release of less than 1 game permonth. 10 months, 6 games, 2 are decent, one is exceptional. I heard AvP isdelayed until Sept. 30th, does this mean the "national rollout" is delayed yetagain? Despite the huge promise that the Jag presents, it has fallen short ofeven the greatest pessimist's expectations. TK ----- Subj: TK3DOFORUM... 94-08-17 10:07:29 EDT From: JasonTE3 Posted on: America Online"Excuse me? The most popular football game ever made isn't to football what Doomis to 1st person exploration games?" - TK3DOFORUMYes. It's not that rare for the most popular game in a genre to not be thehighest quality game in the genre. As far as fighting games are concerned, forexample, MK2 is the most popular fighter at this time, but it's certainly notthe highest quality fighting game out there. Not only that, but I really don'tthink that having yet _another_ version of Madden, along with several otherconsole systems having the game, is as good as having the only console versionof DOOM."When I responded to you saying the big wig at Babbage's said that 3DO saleswere the primary reason for Babbage's 10% sales increase, it was convienientlyignored by you." - TK3DOFORUMHuh? It wasn't "ignored". It just...heh...didn't have a _thing_ to do withwhat we were talking about at the time."Your assessment that 3DO games like Sewer Shark and other ports 'weren'tselling well', were, once again, conjecture on your part." - TK3DOFORUMWhen 30+ games _together_ don't even manage to sell 100,000 units in the U.S.,it's safe to assume that no individual game among those 30+ has sold well."My point regarding your mindless note is that you were bashing the 3DO becausethere was no port of DOOM available for it, regardless of what you wereresponing to." - TK3DOFORUMClayCip said that he thought that the Jag version of DOOM won't be as good asthe PC version in at least some ways. Since this is a "Jaguar vs. 3DO" folder,I responded by pointing out that the Jaguar is at least getting DOOM, whereasthe game _isn't_ coming to the 3DO anytime in the near future. That's not "3DObashing". Would you actually argue that the 3DO is _better off_ as far as DOOMis concerned? Of course not!"Despite the huge promise that the Jag presents, it has fallen short of even thegreatest pessimist's expectations." - TK3DOFORUMMany of "the pessimists" were saying that Crescent Galaxy and Cybermorph"proved" that the Jaguar couldn't produce decent sound, that the system wouldn'tget any third party support, that the system was actually 16-bit, and that thesystem would already be dead by this point. You've been on Prodigy, so you_should_ know as well as I do that the pessimists have been wrong about thissystem.Jason-----Subj: TK3DOFORUM...cont. 94-08-17 10:08:10 EDT From: JasonTE3 Posted on: America Online"I think it's idiocy to bash a system for not having a particular game,especially when the system you are defending has an average release of less than1 game per month." - TK3DOFORUMThe issue was never game release rates. The issue was simple: DOOM. Why isit that 3DO advocates such as yourself can't stand to hear something positiveabout the Jaguar or something negative about the 3DO without it beingaccompanied by a positive comment about the 3DO? If I mention that a Jag gamegot high ratings in a magazine, it's not enough. People like you suggest that Ishould also mention that a 3DO game in some other magazine that came out a monthago got high ratings, too. You seem to have this concept that no positivecomment should be made about the Jag unless they're accompanied by a positivecomment about the 3DO, even if the comment about the 3DO would be off-topic. The game release rate for each system has _nothing_ to do with which system isbetter off as far as DOOM is concerned. Likewise, if you'd point out that the3DO is getting SSF2T and SS, while the Jag isn't getting those games, how muchsense would it make for me to say, in response, "I think it's idiocy to bash asystem for not having a particular game, especially when the system you aredefending costs so much more than the one you're bashing."? Obviously, you'dpoint out that system price has nothing to do with whether or not the 3DO isbetter off because it's getting SS and SSF2T and the Jag isn't. Likewise, gamerelease rates has nothing to do with which system is better off as far as DOOMis concerned. Some 3DO advocates, such as yourself, have a tendency to changethe subject in the middle of a discussion if that discussion is headed in adirection that you don't like. The Jaguar has an advantage because it's gettingthe first console version of DOOM, so you change the subject to game releaserates.Jason-----Subj: Re:3DO "figures" 94-08-17 12:50:07 EDT From: ACLAMPosted on: America Online>>>I have a hard time accepting it because >NO ONE< can find it. Wouldn't thisannouncement be somewhere?<<<Well, it was announced 2 months ago and was all over the News section in AOL. 2month-old news usually doesn't hang around very long. I'll look in the pastissues of Mercury News to see if I can dig it up....-----Subj: Shock Wave #1 94-08-17 15:03:17 EDT From: Prince99 Posted on: America OnlineIn the newest issue of EGM, Shock Wave is the #1 3DO game sold during the monthat Babbages... The Jaguar can't even be on the top ten yet because they don'thave 10 games out yet... not bashing, just truth...NP: Dark Lou-----Subj: Re:TK3DOFORUM... 94-08-17 15:42:14 EDT From: TK3DOFORUM Posted on: America Online"Huh? It wasn't "ignored". It just...heh...didn't have a _thing_ to do withwhat we were talking about at the time" JasonTE3 We were talking about 3DOsales, remember? And how you only have your memory to back up your commentsregarding what you think are similiar 3DO and Jag sales. No mention was made ofJag sales by Babbage's, which was my point. "When 30+ games _together_ don'teven manage to sell 100,000 units in the U.S., it's safe to assume that noindividual game among those 30+ has sold well." Jason TE3 Again, conjecture onyour part. According to members of Compuserve, the 3DO has jumped,conservatively, to 200,000 units domestically. Only YOUR opinion matters, you'vemade that painfully obvious. "I responded by pointing out that the Jaguar is atleast getting DOOM..." Jason TE3 American McGee, at ID Software, " There may beone, nothing for sure though." "Why is it that 3DO advocates such as yourselfcan't stand to hear something positive about the Jaguar or something negativeabout the 3DO without it being accompanied by a positive comment about the 3DO? If I mention that a Jag game got high ratings in a magazine, it's not enough."Jason TE3 Once again your opinion of where I stand is sorely mistaken. I ownevery game for both systems, so I OBVIOUSLY support both systems. If I point outthat, to this point, I am far more satisfied with my 3DO than I am with my JAGis just being honest. If I feel, correctly, that the 3DO has far more available,far greater selection, better overall quality of titles, and more 3rd partysupport (and releases) to this point, <next>-----Subj: Re:TK3DOFORUM... 94-08-17 15:49:45 EDT From: TK3DOFORUM Posted on: America Online<continued> ...you take it that I am anti-JAG. The Jag, and it's lack of titles,is highly disappointing. Despite your eternal Atari optimism, I apologize, but Ido not share your enthusiasm, nor is it my responsibility to agree with yourviews. "As far as fighting games are concerned, for example, MK2 is the mostpopular fighter at this time, but it's certainly not the highest qualityfighting game out there. " Jason TE3 Again, your opinion is what your percieveto be reality. There are many who would argue that MKII is the best fighter,others would argue Samurai Shodown, others would argue for SSFFII. Because youdon't percieve it to be the best fighter of all time, doesn't mean that itisn't. John Madden has been the most popular, that's all I said. I made nomention of JM's quality, why is it relevant to Doom? If I say I like EFMM betterthan DOOM, can you argue with my opinion? I think not. DOOM has also been themost popular game in it's genre, and I'm glad the JAG is getting it. But....it'sOLD. Not as old as Wolf 3D, but anyone who could've played DOOM, probablyalready has, not unlike Alone in the Dark TK ----- Subj: EGM and Jason TE3 94-08-17 16:02:04 EDT From: TK3DOFORUM Posted on: America OnlineWell since Jason gleefully posted, in at least 3 categories, how woeful WOWT'sreviews were, I thought I'd provide the latest info to help ease any fearsinitiated by the "grandaddy" of all gaming mags-EGM. 8/17 Naughty Dog Softwarerecieved their final versions of WOTW....TODAY. I wonder how EGM got theirs overa month ago... (doesn't sound right, does it?) Call Naughty Dog and ask if youdisbelieve. 8/17 Universal Interactive announces that EGM reviewed a beta .82or .84 version of WOTW, which is at least 2 months old. Funny enough, in theirreview of WOTW, EGM evaluated the sounds, despite not being nearly complete...8/17 DHGF, according to sources, reviews WOTW in a completely different light."Absolutely opposite" review and "will rip EGM in this upcoming issue".My guess is that EGM wanted to get the jump on everyone, reviewed an early betaversion, and weren't impressed with this version. Unfortunately for them, it'snot the version that's going to be released, which is fortunate for us.Good news for those waiting for WOTW, bad news for those basing opinions on amagazine that is, obviously, biased. No where in the article does it mentionthey are reviewing a beta version despite the fact that this is obvious. DHGFalways mentions the stages of the games they are reviewing/previewing. Why notEGM? Bias, plain and simple. TK ----- Subj: Re:EGM and Micocosm... 94-08-17 17:03:00 EDT From: Prince99 Posted on: America OnlineThey reviewed Microcosm two issues and it's not even scheduled for release untilSept/Oct!-----Subj: Re:EGM and Jason TE3 94-08-17 17:04:03 EDT From: Prince99 Posted on: America OnlineIt has been reported that people are saying WOTW has an unfinished feel 2 it:yeah, the soundtack by White Zombie wasn't included yet, all the sound effects,etc... that's why! Give me something I can feel...-----Subj: TK3DOFORUM... 94-08-17 19:33:26 EDT From: JasonTE3 Posted on: America Online"Again, conjecture on your part. According to members of Compuserve, the 3DO hasjumped, conservatively, to 200,000 units domestically." - TK3DOFORUMAccording to online 3DO advocates on nearly every online service, games likeTotal Eclipse, Madden, The Horde, etc. were selling well and sold quite a fewsystems. The numbers are in now and those games and about 30 others combineddidn't even sell 100,000 units in the U.S. I'm talking about numbers that havebeen officially announced, You're talking about the conjecture of 3DO advocateson Compuserve."I own every game for both systems, so I OBVIOUSLY support both systems." -TK3DOFORUMAs far as I know, people like Prince99, MARLINCHOW, and Zylo still own bothsystems as well. That certainly doesn't change the fact that they constantlybash the Jaguar. As I've said before, I have no problem with people criticizingthe Jaguar. I do so myself. I have a problem with people bashing the system byexaggerating its problems and saying things that are flat out wrong about thesystem. If you want to say that the Jaguar's current lack of games isdisappointing, then fine. I'll agree with you. When somebody like you,ClayCip, Prince99, or anybody else starts going into how the system "has nosupport", "is about to die", "will always get new games as slowly as it has sofar", etc., it's just bashing. That's what I disagree with. Criticizing theJaguar is fine, but when somebody throws accuracy and rationality out the windowand just trashes the system to no end, I'm going to respond. That's whatClayCip and Prince99 have been doing on a regular basis and what you've donelately to an extent."Despite your eternal Atari optimism"Bunk. That was an inaccurate label when ClayCip tried to portray me that wayand it's inaccurate when you do the same. You just can't read what I've said inthis folder, the Jaguar folders, the 32X folder, the Neo Geo folder, andelsewhere and reasonably come to the conclusion that I have "eternal Atarioptimism". I think that I have a realistic view of both systems. I'm certainlynot overhyping or bashing either system, which is more than can be said foryou.Jason-----Subj: Tom... 94-08-17 19:34:23 EDT From: JasonTE3 Posted on: America Online"Well since Jason gleefully posted, in at least 3 categories, how woeful WOWT'sreviews were" - TK3DOFORUMOnce again, you'd rather blatantly mischaracterize me than respond to what I'veactually said. I had a lot of positive things to say about WOTW before itsrelease, some of which are posted near the beginning of the WOTW folder. WhenEGM and numerous other people ho aren't online 3DO advocates play the game andsay that it isn't too good, though, why would I have much hope for it turningout well?"Naughty Dog Software recieved their final versions of WOTW....TODAY. I wonderhow EGM got theirs over a month ago..." - TK3DOFORUMProbably because ND or USI sent them a copy to review. If so, then blame ND orUSI for sending EGM a review copy that wasn't complete. If EGM got theincomplete version elsewhere, then, most certainly, EGM is to blame."Call Naughty Dog and ask if you disbelieve." - TK3DOFORUMYou've gotten through to them? I tried the other day, but just got theanswering machine. I've heard others say that ND isn't answering their E-Maileither."DHGF, according to sources" - TK3DOFORUMExcuse me, but...1.) What "sources"?2.) Aren't you guys the ones who just got done trashing gaming magazines,saying that they're unreliable? >:) My, how you guys change your minds as soonas GF (reportedly) says what you want to hear! :)"Unfortunately for them, it's not the version that's going to be released, whichis fortunate for us." - TK3DOFORUMWhat has changed since the version EGM reviewed?"Good news for those waiting for WOTW, bad news for those basing opinions on amagazine that is, obviously, biased." - TK3DOFORUMHeh...I hate to break this to you, Tom, but you just got done basing youropinion that WOTW may turn out well, in part, on what _GameFan_ (another one ofthose evil, "biased" magazines) reportedly said about WOTW. You're reallytrying to have it both ways here.Jason-----Subj: New 3DO ads? Jaguar? 94-08-17 20:05:21 EDT From: Prince99 Posted on: America OnlineDoes The Wiz sell the Jaguar? I was just wondering because I saw a brand new 3DOcommerical by The Wiz... it has Boomer Esiason from the NY Jets playing the 3DO,and they show great shots of WOTW... the sound effects were great and the colorand smoothness of the characters were dead on... anyone else see it?NP: Loose-----Subj: Prince99... 94-08-17 20:50:41 EDT From: JasonTE3 Posted on: America Online"their new reviewer, Kazi (or something like that) is a friend of mine, and aregular over on the Prodigy bb's (Neo Geo Alliance) He says there are no controlproblems whatsoever." - Prince99If he works for GF, then why don't you ask him to give a short review of thefinal version of the game, then you could post it on AOL? I'd like to hear whatother publications think of the game."It most definitely is N.D.'s fault for giving EGM a copy of the game.I agreewith you 100 percent on that." - Prince99This is what I don't understand. Why would ND give EGM such an incomplete, andapparently poor, version of the game to review?Has so much really changed with the game over the last month or so, that anybodywho hasn't played the absolute _final_ version of the game doesn't really knowwhat it's like? New music, some more sound effects, and new "character icons"hardly seem to be enough to turn a game that's gotten bad previews into a greatgame. I've heard negative reviews for this game from numerous sources (one ofwhich, EGM, seems to have been discredited) and all that I've heard to say thatthose reviews might be inaccurate is that more sound effects, new music, and new"character icons" have since been added. Perhaps the final version will be morepolished than the one EGM and others weren't impressed with, but are thefundamental game play problems solved in the final version? Anyway, Prince, ifyou can get a review from somebody from GF's staff, that would be great.Jason----- Subj: Re:JasonTE 94-08-17 21:12:11 EDT From: ClayCip Posted on: America Online"If you were referring only to the color pallete in the Jaguar's current lineupof games, then I apologize. I misread your comment. Sorry." - JasonTENo problem. The fault is of course part mine for not wording it more clearly.-----Subj: Re:New 3DO ads? Jaguar? 94-08-17 21:22:22 EDT From: ACLAMPosted on: America Online>>>Does The Wiz sell the Jaguar?<<<The Wiz definitely carries the Jag. They haven't showcased it much though. Thestore in Greenwich Village on Broadway actually showcases CD-I more than anyother platform (go figure), and the one on the upper east side on 3rd and 86thstreet has a big 3DO display. Most of the other branches don't really showcaseany specific platform much.I saw the commercial with Boomer....looked pretty good...-----Subj: EGM eats their words. 94-08-18 00:36:04 EDT From: Prince99 Posted on: America OnlineI've just confirmed great info... Will Guggenheim has confirmed that onCompuserve there are numerous reports about EGM & WOTW... he is here on AOL...I'm not sure what his screen name is but he might be posting this 2...Confirmed on CServe: EGM will be doing a "second review" of WOTW in theirOctober issue. The version they reviewed was two months old...it turns out thatEGM only has one 3DO machine to do reviews off of, with one controller too...the version they reviewed was .82 or.84. Also, it is very apparent that theyused an old controller without diagonals. Naughty Dog or 3DO would never allowsuch a huge game like Way of the Warrior to have such lousy (and EGM saidlousy!) controls. The game they reviewed had NO GAME MUSIC (now done by WhiteZombie), had incomplete sound effects, voices, moves... etc...This is unprecedented that EGM would do a "second review" of a game... the onlyother mag that has done this is Gamefan (Sonic CD). What a day. Check this outon CServe as well. Look for all the number to at least double. Probably like 9,8, 8, 7... I'd be happy with 7's and 8's... We'll see... We'll also have thegame before that issue so EGM has already done their damage.-----Subj: Re:Tom... 94-08-18 02:34:50 EDT From: KRRvision Posted on: America Online>>> Probably because ND or USI sent them a copy to review. If so, thenblame ND or USI for sending EGM a review copy that wasn't complete. If EGM gotthe incomplete version elsewhere, then, most certainly, EGM is to blame. - Jason<<<Andy finally responded to me, and in fact EGM reveiwwed a beta. The beta wasprovided at EGM's request for screen shots and for use in developing the WOTWpull out that is in the current issue.Clearly EGM is at fault here. It may not matter in the end, but at least weshould have our facts straight.. I'll buy the gaame and try it for myself...-----Subj: Doom 94-08-18 03:29:20 EDT From: JonHale Posted on: America OnlineHi, I'm new here and after reading over letters many of you seem to like thegame Doom. Well I own a Jaguar and a 3DO, and I work at Babbages. I thought youmight want to know that Doom is on our mailing list for 3DO for a January orFebruary release, and a Sept. release for Jag. If you don't belive me go to anyBabbages and ask them, by the way my store number is 192 just to let you knowI'm not phony. Jon-----Subj: Re:EGM eats their words. 94-08-18 09:06:44 EDT From: DopeMo Posted on: America Onlinegood, i'm glad they are doing that. i hope it gets decent reviews this timearound. I knew that David Liu wouldn't lie to everyone. I think that it servesEGM right to have to print a second review. usually they never admit they arewrong, and it would have been horribly destructive to WOTW. I can't tell youall how happy i am that the big "EGM" >snicker< was wrong on this one. fromwhat i've seen and played WOTW is going to be great!!!!SuB z-----Subj: Dope Mo... 94-08-18 12:22:42 EDT From: JasonTE3 Posted on: America Online"good, i'm glad they are doing that. i hope it gets decent reviews this timearound. I knew that David Liu wouldn't lie to everyone." - Dope MoDavid Liu has been saying that WOTW is a great game for _months_ now. When WOTWwas in the form that it was in when EGM reviewed it, David was calling it agreat game. When it was in worse shape than it was when EGM reviewed it, Davidwas calling it a great game. EGM was wrong to do what they did and their reviewof WOTW is discredited, but it remains to be seen how good WOTW actually is. Ifmore sound effects, White Zombie music, and new "character icons" are all thatwere added since EGM reviewed the game, then the game is probably still belowaverage. Until (unless) I hear about some major changes in the play mechanicsof the game, I'm not expecting much. If the hit detection and the controls arestill poorly implemented, as a lot of people who have played the game claim theywere, then the game's still a disappointment. I just wonder what Naughty Dogcould have done in a month or so to turn a game that got ratings of 5, 4, 3, 3from a magazine that likes fighting games into a great game. I also wonder whyDavid Liu was telling us that WOTW was a great game even when it was in the formthat EGM reviewed. There are still a lot of unanswered questions about thisgame.Jason-----Subj: EGM and WOTW 94-08-18 12:23:16 EDT From: JasonTE3 Posted on: America Online"usually they never admit they are wrong, and it would have been horriblydestructive to WOTW. I can't tell you all how happy i am that the big 'EGM'>snicker< was wrong on this one." - Dope MoI wouldn't be so quick to assume that EGM will just roll over on this one, DopeMo. As bad as this case is, it doesn't hold a candle to what EGM did to theJaguar last year (Top Ten lists, predicting that the system would fail whenabout all they knew about it was the specs, taking a shot at Sam Tramiel, etc.). Yet, they've never admitted to having been wrong in how they covered theJaguar. They've never said anything about having been wrong about the Sanyo 3DOunit either, have they?EGM could very well make ND and USI out to be the ones in the wrong. I wouldn'tbe surprised if EGM would say that they're printing a second review because USItold them that the beta version was the final one. Either that or maybe they'lljust print a second review without saying a word about it. The second reviewmay just appear in the next issue with no explanation as to why they'rereviewing the game again. Whatever EGM decides to do, don't count on themadmitting to having been wrong, Dope Mo. Other than technical mistakes(misspellings, mixing up company names, etc.), GameFan is about the only gamingmagazine that ever admits to having been wrong. I read Electronic Games,VideoGames, GamePro, and just about every other major console gaming publicationand few of them are willing to admit it when they're wrong. Wait until you seehow EGM spins this latest development with WOTW before you jump to theconclusion that they'll admit to having been wrong."from what i've seen and played WOTW is going to be great!!!!" - Dope MoHold on. Just a couple of days or so ago, you said that you noticed that thehit detection in WOTW was screwed up when you played it. Let's not jump to theconclusion that this game is going to be great, just because EGM's abysmalratings for the game have been discredited. This latest development with EGMand WOTW by no means tells us that WOTW will be a great game.Jason----- Subj: Re:EGM and WOTW 94-08-18 12:40:21 EDT From: DopeMo Posted on: America Online"" Hold on. Just a couple of days or so ago, you said that you noticed that thehit detection in WOTW was screwed up when you played it."" --jason--i played it a while ago. as for the improvements, i have a few things to say1. there has been 2 monthes for changes since the version egm has.2. alot can be done in 2 monthsSuB z-----Subj: WOTW 94-08-18 14:37:20 EDT From: JasonTE3 Posted on: America OnlineDope Mo, you said that the version you played had problems with hit detection. EGM rated a version of the game, which is apparently one to two months old, withabysmally poor ratings of 5, 4, 3, 3. The _only_ changes I've heard of sincethe version EGM apparently reviewed are:1. more sound effects added 2. White Zombie music added 3. new "character icons"addedHow do those three things turn a game that had poor hit detection and which gothorrible ratings from a magazine that likes fighting games into a "great"game???We found out that EGM reviewed an incomplete version of the game. We shouldn'tbe jumping to the conclusion, from that, that WOTW is a great game. The gamemay turn out well, it may not. There doesn't seem to be much of a basis at thispoint to expect the game to be bad _or_ good. We just have to wait and see howit turns out. Maybe GF will get a review out before the 30th, but it'sdoubtful. I guess that we'll have to just buy the game and return it if thenegative previews turn out to be accurate.Jason-----Subj: WOTW IS GREAT! 94-08-18 14:59:32 EDT From: Prince99 Posted on: America OnlineJust got offline on Prodigy with Rob Hill II... he got the finished version ofWOTW today... He said, it was "GREAT." That's a quote. No control problems,fantastic music, complete NEW voices, computer rendered cinemas, etc... thereseems to be no hit detection problems at all. EGM was WAY WRONG! Here's how hedescribed the first cinema before the game.... A computer rendered 3D templewith occassionally a computer rendered skull with the symbol for WOTW on it...White Zombie music pounding... excellent... perfect control... can't wait untilI have it. An above average to Excellent fighting game does not deserve a 3.Expect 8's and 9's in the new EGM, and 85+ in Gamefan.NP: Space. Prince ----- Subj: EGM reviewed BETA 94-08-18 17:03:43 EDT From: Prince99 Posted on: America OnlineWord from Kazi, new writer at Gamefan, EGM reviewed a 40% complete version ofWOTW.*Thank god this ain't monopoly...they'd make us all go back 2 start.-----Subj: Re:EGM reviewed BETA 94-08-18 20:37:14 EDT From: ClayCip Posted on: America Online.82 or .84 is an ancient version of WOTW from what I understood. Most peopleplaying a *BETA* copy of a game fully realize that careful tuning andmodification are made during this phase and that any particular beta release maycontain experimental settings to judge player reaction (like the fact that thisparticular beta was 3X as hard to win as the production copy). Any review ofsuch a beta is 100% totally discredited. There is no "By just adding this orthat I don't see how they could get those marks up." The review is simplygarbage. Sheesh for all we know EGM's one controller is broken. It is odd theykeep complaining about control in 3DO games that I consistently find to haveperfect responsiveness to the joypad.-----Subj: Re:WOTW 94-08-18 23:01:46 EDT From: DopeMo Posted on: America Online"" 1. more sound effects added 2. White Zombie music added 3. new "charactericons" added"" --jason--how do you know that this is all that was done in the 2 months it has had sincethe version egm reviewd. i think i played the same version, if not earlier thatwhat egm rated it on. i got a chance to play arround at some 3do exibit in astore. the guy told me it was early.SuB z-----Subj: Re:TK3DOFORUM... 94-08-18 23:23:07 EDT From: TK3DOFORUM Posted on: America OnlineYour response sounds good, but, once again you have nothing to support yourposition. I keep hearing of this "official" announcement and you've done>nothing< to support it. Show me where official 3DO sales were announced andI'll keep quiet on that one. Until then, however, your opinion is pointless. Youhave no proof to support your position. Period. End of story. If you believedifferent, then prove me wrong. Believe it or not, I could probably find 5-10people, active, within this folder, who believe your position is pro-Atari andbiased. Your arguments, for the most part, are invalid, as you continuallydefend a system that has no software in nearly 10 months of release. I haveNEVER stated that I hoped Atari would "die" or that they have "no support". Ihave continually maintained that MY $279.00 investment in the Jaguar has been amajor disappointment. I am entitled to my opinion and believe that I represent aquiet majority that purchased the Jag in November '93 with far greaterexpectations. Do not categorize me within your own limitations because what I amand what you percieve me to be are two different things. I support the Jag, buyall titles available for it, but have NOT been impressed to this point. I hopeit changes. I have been FAR more impressed with my purchase of a 3DO and amentitiled to such an opinion. TK ----- Subj: Re:Tom... 94-08-18 23:37:15 EDT From: TK3DOFORUM Posted on: America OnlineSorry but I didn't ... 1.) Post notes about a review of a beta Jaguar game. 2.)Disregard what a representative of Universal Interactive said. 3.) Representthat opinions of ANY magazine represented my point of view. 4.) Yes, I gotthrough to Naughty Dog. 5.) Post notes throughout a multiple of foldersdissuading would be buyers from a preliminary review from an unreliable source.("there won't be a Sanyo 3DO, there won't be an AT&T 3DO, there won't be aGoldstar 3DO...they've erred SO MANY TIMES that it's ridiculous.) 6.) Won't beheld responsible for posting that DHGF will give WOTW a positive review. Ipointed this out for the purpose that people ignore YOUR mindless post and beable to make a decision on their own, despite your EGM reveiw and the fact thatYOU'VE never played the final version, despite LOOKING for something to crushthe 3DO on. 7.) I don't give a flying ..... what video game magazines have tosay about ANYTHING. Other people do. It is my responsibility, as a 3DO (andJAG) advocate to dispute anything posted that I deem unreasonable. Your post, ofan EGM review of a .82 or .84 Beta WOTW, is irresponsible and irrelevant.Period. I don't care what EGM, DHGF, or what you say. When the final product isout we'll all know better---including you. Because it's obvious that you arebasing your opinion on what EGM printed, not on what you've played. Give it arest 'till you know what you're talking about. TK ----- Subj: Dope Mo... 94-08-19 01:47:50 EDT From: JasonTE Posted on: America Online"how do you know that this is all that was done in the 2 months it has had sincethe version egm reviewd." - Dope MoI don't. That's why I said that those three things are all that I've _heard of_so far.Jason-----Subj: TK3DOFORUM... 94-08-19 01:48:20 EDT From: JasonTE Posted on: America Online"Believe it or not, I could probably find 5-10 people, active, within thisfolder, who believe your position is pro-Atari and biased. Your arguments, forthe most part, are invalid, as you continually defend a system that has nosoftware in nearly 10 months of release." - TK3DOFORUMIn other words, you could get 5-10 people from the 3DO side of this debate tosay that they think that I'm "biased" (whatever that means) and you also thinkthat my arguments are automatically invalid because I'm arguing in favor of theJaguar. Tom, do you put any thought into what you post or do you just spewforth the first load of trash that comes to mind?"I am entitled to my opinion and believe that I represent a quiet majority thatpurchased the Jag in November '93 with far greater expectations." - TK3DOFORUM1.) That "quiet majority" isn't so quiet. When's the last time you heard aJaguar owner online say that he's pleased with the number of games out for thesystem? Just because somebody isn't constantly bashing the system and insistingthat it has no future, that doesn't mean that he's pleased with how well thesystem has done so far.2.) Of course everybody/almost everybody had higher expectations for the Jaguarwhen it was first released. Once again, though, being disappointed with how thesystem has done so far and stating it, as I've done, is one thing, butconstantly bashing the system and saying that it has no future and such isanother thing. If anybody stops short of trashing the Jaguar and writing offits future, somebody like you or Prince99 will insist that that person "has apro-Atari bias"."I have been FAR more impressed with my purchase of a 3DO and am entitiled tosuch an opinion." - TK3DOFORUMSpare me, Tom. Nobody challenged your "right to prefer the 3DO". I could saythe same thing. I'm "entitled" to prefer the Jaguar to the 3DO. Whoop-de-doo. The only "intolerant" person here is you, Tom, who insists that all of myarguments are "invalid", because I'm arguing in favor of the Jaguar.I haven't been impressed with my Jaguar or my 3DO. The vast majority of theappeal of both systems lies in their potential and the games that are on theway. Tempest 2000 is my favorite game for either system right now and I seemore games that interest me coming to the Jaguar than I see coming to the 3DO. If games like Twisted, Madden, Total Eclipse, Shock Wave, etc. are enough toconvince you that the 3DO is doing great, while the Jaguar is doing terrible,then fine. Personally, I've seen plenty of 16-bit games that blow anything oneither of these systems out of the water. Between the Jaguar and 3DO, though, Iprefer the Jaguar, in part, because of Tempest 2000 and what I believe is abetter lineup of upcoming games.Jason-----Subj: TK3DOFORUM...again 94-08-19 01:48:46 EDT From: JasonTE Posted on: America Online"Your post, of an EGM review of a .82 or .84 Beta WOTW, is irresponsible andirrelevant....YOU'VE never played the final version, despite LOOKING forsomething to crush the 3DO on." - TK3DOFORUMIs it possible for you to argue against somebody _without_ mischaracterizingthem???It was a member of AOL's staff, VGS Jay, who originally posted EGM's ratings forWOTW. He followed up the ratings by saying, "Do the math and you'll see thatSNES and Genesis are the only way to go" or something to that effect. Iresponded by saying that EGM's low ratings were disappointing and didn't leavemuch hope for WOTW turning out well and I also said that while I agreed with Jaythat the 16-bit systems are currently better, I think that the Jaguar and 3DOwill be better in the near future. It wasn't until _days later_ that _any_ ofus found out that EGM reviewed an incomplete version of the game. You are being_extremely_ deceitful when you suggest that I purposely presented a review of anincomplete WOTW in order to have something to "crush the 3DO on". Read my postson WOTW early in the WOTW folder, in the 3DO folder, in the Best Fighting Gamefolder, and elsewhere. I _clearly_ had high expectations for this game. You'reblatantly mischaracterizing me here, to the point where you're flat out lying."Because it's obvious that you are basing your opinion on what EGM printed, noton what you've played." - TK3DOFORUMI just said, _numerous times_, over the last few posts that EGM's review hasbeen discredited. I have no opinion of WOTW, because I haven't played it yet. Even my _expectations_ for the game can't possibly be based on what EGM hassaid, because I've made it clear that I've dismissed EGM's review of the game.Tom, you often use misrepresenting what other people say as a crutch whenarguing. I wish that, just for once, you'd respond to what I _actually say_,rather than inaccurately guessing at my motives, mischaracterizing me, thendismissing me as "biased" or "unreasonable" because of thosemischaracterizations. Respond to what I actually say instead of putting wordsin my mouth. It's no wonder you didn't quote me _one single time_ in your twoposts to me. It's hard to put words in somebody's mouth when their _actual_words are quoted right there.Jason-----Subj: 3DO Sales Numbers 94-08-19 09:49:52 EDT From: KRRvision Posted on: America OnlineTom,I dug around and finally found the story released in May about 3DO sales. Thesenumbers apply to the first quarter of 94, no others have been officiallyreleased.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>3DO Announces Fourth Quarter and Fiscal 1994 ResultsRedwood City, Calif. May 12, 1994. The 3DO company (NASDAQ:THDO) todayreleased financial results for it's fourth quarter and 1994 fiscal year endedMarch 31,1994. The net loss for the fourth quarter ended March 31, 1994 totaled$7.4 million, or $0.37 per share, compared to a net loss of $7.7 million, or$0.51 per share, for the fourth quarter of the prior year. The companyrecognized revenue of $4.2 million in the current quarter. For the comparableprior year quarter, the company was in development stage and recognized norevenues.*SNIP ---- Cutting a lot of additional financial info ----- SNIP*Fourth quarter royalty revenues included a significant contribution from theJapan consumer launch in March 1994 of the Panasonic Real-TM 3DO-TM InteractiveMultiplayer-TM system."The Japan launch got off to a strong start in March," said D. Rex Golding,3DO's chief financial officer. "We are pleased that Matsushita is now activelymarketing 3DO-based products under the Panasonic brand name in both Japan andthe United States."3DO also announced today that it has been informed by Matsushita that 120,0003DO systems have been sold through to consumers worldwide. As previouslyreported, more than 1 million CD-ROMS have been pressed for the 3DO InteractiveMultiplayer system.The company also reported that as of April 30, 1994, more than 550 developmentsystems had been shipped to over 200 licensee companies worldwide.<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<I hope that clears up the issue of 3DO sales numbers through the first quarter.I'm interested to see what they are now... Those numbers only run through March,5 months have now gone by... Give us the numbers already!!!-----Subj: TK3DOFORUM... :) 94-08-19 10:45:52 EDT From: JasonTE3 Posted on: America Online"These numbers apply to the first quarter of 94, no others have been officiallyreleased." - KRRvisionThank you, Keith! I couldn't believe how skeptical Tom was. :) There wereother numbers announced as well, though. I think it was in June that bothAtari's and 3DO's (Panasonic's) latest numbers were announced. I think thatPanasonic had sold 250,000 worldwide, with a third of those having been in theU.S....or something close to that. Anyway, thanks for at least confirming thefirst quarter numbers, Keith.Just as a reminder, here's the point of all of this. We heard for months, froma lot of online 3DO advocates, that games like Total Eclipse, Madden, MonsterManor, The Horde, etc. were selling well and were selling a lot of systems. Thenumbers have been in for a while now to prove that TE, Madden, and about 20-30other games _combined_ didn't even sell 100,000 units here. All of the localexamples about the 3DO selling well, Total Eclipse selling systems, etc. didn'tamount to anything. It wasn't until official, nationwide numbers were announcedthat we got an accurate, _reliable_ idea of how well the system had beenselling, how many systems a particular 3DO game actually sold, etc. Likewise,online 3DO owners claiming that Shock Wave is selling well and is selling a lotof systems doesn't prove a thing, no matter how many local examples they bringup. In fact, because of how wrong so many of them were about how well gameslike TE and Madden were selling, there's good reason to doubt what they sayabout how well Shock Wave is selling. Before we declare SW a system-seller, aswas done with Total Eclipse, The Horde, and so many other games, let's waituntil the official numbers are in. Local examples are just about worthless, aswe've seen from the official numbers that have been released so far.Jason-----Subj: Dag... 94-08-19 11:45:52 EDT From: Prince99 Posted on: America Online250,000 worldwide... excellent.-----Subj: EVERYBODY... 94-08-19 14:29:56 EDT From: JasonTE3 Posted on: America OnlineSeveral days ago, I posted some comments from a programmer I know who playedWOTW. I've spoken with him again since that time and I want to make acorrection. My friend recently found out that the version he played was aboutone and a half months old at the time that he played it. At that time, ND (orUSI) told the company where he played the game that the version they had was_final_. ND later decided to change the game.As I said before, the person I talked to was very impressed with the graphics,but wasn't pleased with the hit detection and some other aspects of the gameplay. If those problems have been addressed in more recent versions of thegame, as David Liu suggests, then it may turn out well. I plan to buy the game. If it hasn't turned out well, I can just return it to the store. I apologizefor any confusion that this may have caused, but keep in mind that _Naughty Dog_told the company where he played the game that the version they'd received wasfinal. There was no way for my friend to know that the game was later changed. Anyway, let's hope that the changes made in the last couple of months haveimproved the game a lot.Jason-----Subj: Re:Dag... 94-08-19 15:25:46 EDT From: KRRvision Posted on: America Online>>> 250,000 worldwide... excellent. <<<I would agree... Especially considering that we are not even in the Christmasbuying season yet, and the REAL is still selling at $450+....What amazed me about the first quarter numbers was that we can guess that about50,000 machines sold here... The majority of them at $700... Now Jason may beright that those early titles may not be system sellers in the popular sense,but they did manage to sell a few high priced systems...-----Subj: Re:EVERYBODY... 94-08-19 15:31:01 EDT From: KRRvision Posted on: America Online>>> Anyway, let's hope that the changes made in the last couple of months haveimproved the game a lot. <<<Jason,from the notes I received back from ND, it appears that the .82 through .84betas were in fact "feelers". They sent these out to testers for evaluation ofthe fighting engine. Each version had certain characteristics that were changed,and the feedback from playtesters resulted in the final changes. The hitdetection and with the .82 version, the difficulty level, were adjusted.So I would not be surprised to see the engine tuned a bit differently now thanin prior versions. David Liu already mentioned that the release version has aless difficult level of play than the .82 or .84 betas...But we shall see!-----Subj: Game Designers/Artists Wanted 94-08-19 15:39:39 EDT From: Helmut01 Posted on: America OnlineCyclone Studios is a young, ambitious game developer doing hot titles for nextgeneration systems like the 3DO, Sega Saturn and Sony PSX. We're growingquickly, and are looking for the following talented professionals to join ouradventure:* game designer* producer* 3D artist/animators* 2D artist/animatorsRaw, genuine talent is our first criteria, but applicants should also beextremely motivated and passionate about their work, and be excited about beingput to the challenge of making some of the world's best video games. The peoplethat will do best here are those that appreciate an environment where extremelyambitious goals are set and worked towards in a team atmosphere. They willappreciate having a ton of responsibility and impact on their work. A strongsense of independence is also crucial, because our style is to pick people whowe have confidence in, point them in the right direction, and then let them gooff on their own with a fair degree of autonomy.I wasn't kidding when I called this an "adventure": working in a small companyatmosphere, where you get to know everybody intimately, where there's nobureaucracy or layers of management to get in the way of creativity andproductivity, and where you definitely see your contribution to the bottom line,is a total blast. It can also be lucrative; we offer profit sharing, stockoptions, competitive salaries, and other benefits.If you're interested in talking to us, email me or fax/mail a resume to:Helmut Kobler Cyclone Studios 1755 East Bayshore Road, #7B Redwood City, CA94063 415/568-1800 (voice) 415/568-1810 (fax)-----Subj: KRRvision... 94-08-19 16:35:59 EDT From: JasonTE3 Posted on: America Online"from the notes I received back from ND, it appears that the .82 through .84betas were in fact 'feelers'." - KRRvisionWell, again, ND told the company that had the version of the game that my friendplayed that that version was meant to be the final one. I believe that it wassomething more recent than .82 or .84.I would guess that a lot of this confusion about how good the game is comes fromND changing their mind about when the game was completed. It seems that a lotof people got the impression that older versions of the game were the finalversion.Apparently, ND told the company where the guy I know played the game that theversion they had was the complete one. My friend played the game at that time. Later on, ND decided to change the game. My friend didn't find out about thatuntil recently, though. Again, I'm sorry for any confusion this may havecreated, but I want to emphasize that ND _did_ say that the version my friendplayed was final at that time. He couldn't possibly have known that ND wouldchange the game later on."But we shall see!" - KRRvisionYeah. I plan to buy the game. I hope it turns out well!Jason-----Subj: Re:TK3DOFORUM... :) 94-08-19 17:53:25 EDT From: ACLAMPosted on: America Online>>>The numbers have been in for a while now to prove that TE, Madden, and about20-30 other games _combined_ didn't even sell 100,000 units here...Likewise,online 3DO owners claiming that Shock Wave is selling well and is selling a lotof systems doesn't prove a thing, no matter how many local examples they bringup. <<<Well, although the numbers aren't in the millions, I don't completely agree here(surprise, surprise!). You can't look at the absolute unit sales and draw sucha conclusion. You have to look at context. For example, it is pretty wellknown that VG sales around the Xmas months account for about 70% of total VGsales in a year. The games like TE and Madden were released outside of thistimeframe, thereby dampening their effect on absolute unit sales. The way Iwould look at it would be to measure their effect on sales RELATIVE to theseason in which they are trying to sell. Of course, this is nearly impossibleto actually measure (there are way too many factors to consider), so in generalyou need to go on some gut feel and some extrapolation of any kind of surveydata which can be
